Text of TeleFinder Chat from Tuesday, June 23, 1998 11 AM PDT.
Remember, next chat is Thursday NIGHT 6
pm PDT!
In attendance:
From SpiderIsland: Rusty Tucker
Sysops: mikael fredriksson, in2macz, Bob Nunn, Daniel O'Leary,
Ken Sutherland, Michael Davidson, Jim Leary, Daryl Hansen
Rusty Tucker hola!
mikael fredriksson : Hi!
in2macz : hi Rusty
mikael fredriksson : RT did you get my mail about System 8.5
on non PPC Macs?
Rusty Tucker yes, the note that it is PPC only?
mikael fredriksson : yes
mikael fredriksson : There was question about that a the chat
6/9.
Rusty Tucker Any bug s to report the last beta's?
mikael fredriksson : no bugs here ;)
in2macz : I am just an observer right now : ) I am on Bob
Nunn's system here in Memphis and I am working on a web page and came
to see if I could learn something about SPML.
Rusty Tucker Good, did you find the SPML docs already?
Rusty Tucker There are also a bunch of samples online and with
the release/demo
in2macz : Well,I just downloaded from Headgap right before
the chat began. Haven't had time to look at them yet.
Rusty Tucker Plus , Bob has put together a lot as well.
in2macz : I downloaded the demo this morning. Still working
with it too!
Rusty Tucker There's a lot you can do with SPML. Do you have a
specific application in mind?
in2macz : Well I just created the page and I am wanting to
add a form. Bob is helping me but I am a little confused how to do
it.
Rusty Tucker There's 2 parts to forms, the HTML that creates
the form, and then that form's ACTION.
Rusty Tucker The ACTION part can be an SPML page or CGI.
in2macz : And that is where I am lost right now the Action
part. Posting the output/input to my mailbox on Headgap.
in2macz : Or onto the page directly.
Rusty Tucker OK, then grab the samples regarding
MailForms.
in2macz : Here on SI?
Rusty Tucker For easy testing, you can make a target page that
simply echoes the input.
Rusty Tucker They're part of the demo, and might be included
in whatever bob gave you?
Bob Nunn joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Bob!
in2macz : OK..like I said just got the server up an hour or
two ago..still working with it. Bob's been a great help!
in2macz : Hi Bob!
Bob Nunn : Hey a local boy!
in2macz : Yep.....Guess I need to change my info on SI so I
can use my real name : ) Use to using an alias.
Bob Nunn : What kind of server did you put up?
in2macz : Thanks for all your help Bob with the web page. I
can't connect anymore because I have logged in too many times.
in2macz : The TeleFinder 5.6 demo...messing with it!
Bob Nunn : Well I should have fixed that. Try after the
chat.
in2macz : I sit back and learn while you folks talk about the
real questions : )
Bob Nunn : You should have a fair amount of SPML code with
that demo. If not try my sysop utils area.
Bob Nunn : RT do you know about amazon.com's associate
program?
Rusty Tucker nope>
Rusty Tucker what is it?
Bob Nunn : Harley Hahn the author of the Internet Yellow
Pages told me about it.
Bob Nunn : If you provide links they provide cash from anyone
who orders after having linked from your site.
Rusty Tucker I've seen something like that on slashdot for
"cdsnow"
Bob Nunn : 5% for links, 15% for titles linked. Send u a
check they do. CDnow is another I have heard about.
Rusty Tucker devious way of getting cheap ads!
Bob Nunn : May try to use my 2000-3000 hits to better use.
Need help offsetting my expenses.
Rusty Tucker When I saw that, I thought it might work to make
a plan to build a site that is nothing but a feeder to sites like
that.
Rusty Tucker Like build a site that will come up high on the
search engines for best sellers. know what I mean?
Bob Nunn : Don't think anyone would get rich off of it but it
could help a few guys out with hobby sites perhaps.
Rusty Tucker Definitely setup a a link for your own
purchases!
Bob Nunn : Well you manage to get in there with your listings
so you probably could make a go of it.
Rusty Tucker 15% of a $25 book is pretty good money!
Bob Nunn : mikael are you running Suzie 2?
Rusty Tucker You could even offer discounts to guys linking
through your site.
Bob Nunn : Since Harley puts my site in his yellow pages I
put his book cover on my title screen. He suggested I link it to
amazon and get paid for it. He gets his royalty either way.
Bob Nunn : I am going to do it, featuring titles about
subjects I like. I figure the traffic visiting my site might like
them to and if they buy....
Bob Nunn : Just a bit of time is my only investment. They
provide the code and graphics and provide reports on traffic
generated etc.
Rusty Tucker Hmm.. I think I made a link to amazon from
FATW... maybe I'll get a check too?
Rusty Tucker Who's going to audit all this?
Rusty Tucker I guess I'd need to sign up first.
Bob Nunn : You have to hunt for the link. They have a nice
signup area with all the details and FAQs etc.
Rusty Tucker and read the fine print too. It seems unlikely
that someone, even if they buy eventually, would go from my link to
Amazon, and immediately purchase. What happens if they look around
and buy tomorrow?
Bob Nunn : I have used both Amazon and CDnow. Both give good
service and pricing I like. I frequently recommend them vocally. The
rules are very thorough.
Rusty Tucker I guess this is why Wall Street is gaga over
portal sites!
Rusty Tucker Amazon is OK, but more expensive, and slower
delivery than dropping by BookStar.
Bob Nunn : Well I am not trying to make money, just trying to
break even doing something I enjoy seems okay to me. They closed all
of our Bookstar's when they put in Barnes and Noble. They don't have
the selection unfortunately. I like buying half priced books on older
versions.
Daniel O'Leary joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Daniel!
Daniel O'Leary : Late but I made it.
Daniel O'Leary : What did I miss?
Daniel O'Leary : Can we get additional AE support to do
periodic updates of user dirs?
Daniel O'Leary : Hello, is ANYONE talking???
Rusty Tucker hi :)
Rusty Tucker sorry, on the phone
in2macz : I am here Daniel but I am observing!
Daniel O'Leary : Ah.
in2macz : Waiting for the SPML conversation : )
Daniel O'Leary : Thought the ckt was deal.
Rusty Tucker hi, we're a little slow today
Daniel O'Leary : dead.
Daniel O'Leary : RT, can we get AE support to do more stuff
with UM?
Rusty Tucker such as?
Daniel O'Leary : Update/creating older, or overwrite files
put there by other updates or as part of new user reg.
Daniel O'Leary : retain.
Rusty Tucker BTW - The Thursday chat will be at 6 p.m. PDT
Daniel O'Leary : to distribute folder containing
periodically-updated data.
Rusty Tucker D0, why not do what Suzie does?
Rusty Tucker just loop through the users..
Daniel O'Leary : Chris has not sent me the code too what I
want RT.
Daniel O'Leary : Said he would, but have not seen it.
Daniel O'Leary : nor him in a while now.
Rusty Tucker Aren't the User Manager events described some
where?
Daniel O'Leary : Knew that I could externally do this with
control files, but that is a kluge.
Daniel O'Leary : My experience with scripting based on the
old dox was not pleasant nor terribly productive.
Daniel O'Leary : Perhaps I need to revisit that.
Daniel O'Leary : Came up with a way to rapidly configure
large gateways (MK, TFNet and Lollipop)
Daniel O'Leary : Uses BBEdit, which apparently can be
scripted too.
Daniel O'Leary : Then shuts down Mail server, load the new
stuff into the MS config file and then restarts it.
Rusty Tucker OK - I've just posted the Suzie Source into
Beta
Daniel O'Leary : Can do the same for lollipop and MK, but the
config for MK is problematic because of external files it
creates.
Jim Leary joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Jim!
Daniel O'Leary : Thanks...
Rusty Tucker The Interface to User Manager is really for C
programs
Rusty Tucker AppleScript and Usertalk don't have support for C
data, and that's a problem.
Rusty Tucker You'll need some additional files to actually
build Suzie. We'll sort that out and post them as well.
Daniel O'Leary : Will build what I can as scripts, the rest
as apps.
Daniel O'Leary : Cool.
Rusty Tucker try it out, and let me know what else you
need.
Daniel O'Leary : Ok...
Daniel O'Leary : Figure I can give ya something back after
all this time.
Daniel O'Leary : Almost have large gateway config nailed.
Daniel O'Leary : And with a little work, a much better new
user script.
Daniel O'Leary : periodic updates will be cool.
in2macz : Well folk's gotta run and work on this SPML
stuff....hopefully see you Thursday...
Daniel O'Leary : Suzie framework with MS's scheduling is a
killer combo.
in2macz left the chat.
Rusty Tucker c-ya in2macz
Bob Nunn : Sorry, got tied up.
Daniel O'Leary : I have been concentrating my efforts on
little things that will make configuring and reconfiguring the system
easier.
Bob Nunn : RT I noticed you changed the Suzie a bit. I still
had it crash. Anything else to try?
Bob Nunn : Haven't turned off all of my plug ins?
Rusty Tucker OK - that should be all the source necessary for
Suzie.
Bob Nunn : Guess I need to duck out now. Will see you guys
Thurs. RT send me the log please.
Rusty Tucker Beta Spider Wares/Suzie/ folder.
Daniel O'Leary : RT also noted that UM default paths should
be increased to account for new rqt to add paths for aliased
items.
Bob Nunn left the chat.
Rusty Tucker c-ya Bob Nunn
Rusty Tucker The project files are for CW 11, but should work
with newer with minor changes.
Ken Sutherland joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Ken!
Daniel O'Leary : if no penalty,then up it a lot...
Daniel O'Leary : ok will test it here...
Ken Sutherland : Hi All, bug report Rusty
Rusty Tucker It's 1k per path per node. It does add up.
Ken Sutherland : the mail server did quit due to the mail
dialog was outside display area
Ken Sutherland : was a 19", now 14". didn't like it, cut line
1 and it was fine on restart
Rusty Tucker thanks I'll look at that
Ken Sutherland : want the config?
Rusty Tucker yes, thanks
Ken Sutherland : Rusty, is there any sign of a combo dialog
box for the nodes, like Chris showed us about 10 months ago?, looked
cool
Rusty Tucker not at present
Rusty Tucker didn't seem to be a "must have" feature
Daniel O'Leary : I like the way MS does it.
Ken Sutherland : helps desktop management, maybe corps would
like it
Rusty Tucker Most don't spend any time looking at the
screen.
Rusty Tucker So, Ken, the Suzie source is posted now.
Daniel O'Leary : Even with 21 inches, I have trouble placing
stuff in a useful way.
Ken Sutherland : how about a better way to manage 8 nodes or
more
Ken Sutherland : i.e. modem nodes and TCP nodes, pop
nodes
Rusty Tucker Looks like Dan might be interested in heading up
the "3.0" effort :)?
Daniel O'Leary : You got it RT.
Rusty Tucker KS - hide all node windows. That works for me
:)
Ken Sutherland : good, look forward to looking at it
Ken Sutherland : DO, any plans?
Daniel O'Leary : Now that I can program for this thing I have
lots of them.
Ken Sutherland : including an auto backup utility I hope
8-)
Rusty Tucker Its too bad that Stephen Tallent never published
his Frontier Web interface for TeleFinder BBS nodes.
Jim Leary left the chat.
Rusty Tucker c-ya Jim Leary
Ken Sutherland : did you c the prive of frontier licenses
Ken Sutherland : prive
Ken Sutherland : price even
Daniel O'Leary : I tried to get him to tell me more about it,
but never got a response.
Rusty Tucker yes I did.
Ken Sutherland : RT, any further with the request for server
side AppleScript support
Daniel O'Leary : downloaded Frontier and was confused...
Daniel O'Leary : Hmm
Rusty Tucker say what code breath?
Daniel O'Leary : Execute an AppleScript....
Daniel O'Leary : grin.
Rusty Tucker u mean that new plugin?
Ken Sutherland : RT, the sysop not here chat feature? any
reason why it would deselect itself every so often
Daniel O'Leary : kind of like mod.perl for Apache.
Rusty Tucker you don't want to install that if you have
personal web sites!!
Daniel O'Leary : I want to allow execAS from server-root but
not from ~anything.
Ken Sutherland : how close are we to matching features in
WebStar 3
Ken Sutherland : excluding SSL obviously
Ken Sutherland : fingers out of sync
Daniel O'Leary : Is there still a huge cost for sub-ing
SSL?
Rusty Tucker then you need to ask the Q' the other way around
:)
Daniel O'Leary : and is it possible/profitable to
reverse-engineer a compatible version.
Ken Sutherland : ok, when are WE going to get these features
then, SSL, ftp etc.
Rusty Tucker I think that you can embed scripts INTO the HTML
using that plugin.
Daniel O'Leary : Clean-room design/implementation worked for
scamming virtually everything else, right?
Daniel O'Leary : It should not, but it did.
Rusty Tucker You can use SPML to run Apple Script
programs.
Daniel O'Leary : Lawyers... Argh...
Ken Sutherland : new request for release of TF server 5.7
please
Rusty Tucker Yes, SSL still requires a $60K license fee or
something like that.
Daniel O'Leary : take a form and wait in line Ken... Grin
mikael fredriksson : KS wasn't Jon working on a ftp
plugin?
Ken Sutherland : remember those nice black T-shirts you gave
with TF server 4, the club beta
Daniel O'Leary : Still have mine.
Rusty Tucker yep, sure do
Ken Sutherland : MF, its on the back burner
Ken Sutherland : so Have I
Ken Sutherland : was wearing it last weekend
mikael fredriksson : me too:)
Ken Sutherland : very nice
Ken Sutherland : hint hint
Ken Sutherland : pr etc.
Daniel O'Leary : WOW... 60K!!!!!
Rusty Tucker :) - right
Daniel O'Leary : Got a T-shirt from Netscape too.
Daniel O'Leary : not nearly as cool.
Ken Sutherland : could you develop a plugin for Mac/PC to do
the same
Rusty Tucker KS - if I had the $ anymore, I'd do it in a
heartbeat
Ken Sutherland : offer it at a discount
Ken Sutherland : an extra $ with every upgrade
Daniel O'Leary : Saw another "security thru obscurity"
problem ... ICQ and Xwindows.
Rusty Tucker I got a better offer for you. Find some new
TeleFinder customers and resell to them.
Daniel O'Leary : Code to have login passwd and spoof ICQ.
Ken Sutherland : then update the PC client then
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE
Rusty Tucker AOL sure got their money's worth :)
Daniel O'Leary : Xwindows based attack to yield root passwd
to X attack.
Daniel O'Leary : only on X86... hahahahah
Daniel O'Leary : MS word 98 storing random sys mem to
doc....
Ken Sutherland : if we could offer o consistent picture of
the client it would help
Rusty Tucker ? - please explain
Daniel O'Leary : yields URLS, logins and passwords in plain
text viable with BBEdit.
Ken Sutherland : Mac and PC DO NOT look the same, if everyone
else is doing it, why be different
Daniel O'Leary : See rootshell.com.
Rusty Tucker D0 - is this a TeleFinder chat or MS Rant
Room?
Ken Sutherland : u r loosing to QuickMail a lot in the UK
Daniel O'Leary : Security rant.
Rusty Tucker QuickMail?
Ken Sutherland : a consistent look help irrelevant of
platform
Ken Sutherland : and good old First Class
Ken Sutherland : remember we are also now competing with the
PC market for intranet solutions also
Daniel O'Leary : Weird... Pitch for PlainTalk is going down
when Jim Leary posted some HTML to me.
Ken Sutherland : sorry if I am being a pain, but I c so much
potential in your product but I cant convert anyone
Ken Sutherland : the min they c the PC side they are Not
impressed
Ken Sutherland : we need offline conf support and some sort
of desktop support
Rusty Tucker It should not be positioned as a client email
product...
Ken Sutherland : why not
Ken Sutherland : u supply it
Ken Sutherland : is it not good enough
Ken Sutherland : etc., that's what I get
Rusty Tucker because it was never intended to compete with
QuickMail
Daniel O'Leary : Whiteboarding (both realtime and
non-realtime) would be useful, regardless of target.
Ken Sutherland : why not, QuickMail is both Mac and PC, has a
nice client and lots of features, they had this 3 years ago
Ken Sutherland : ok, ill go shut up and hide in my corner
again
Rusty Tucker TeleFinder was never designed to compete with
QuickMail.
Ken Sutherland : but it could
Daniel O'Leary : What differentiates TF from competition?
Daniel O'Leary : Features and integration...
Rusty Tucker Going after QuickMail makes no sense!
Ken Sutherland : Dan, try the QM lite for an example, ill
send you the PC and Mac clients to look at if you want, version 5
supports POP3
Rusty Tucker They're losing market like crazy.
Ken Sutherland : why should they get the market, your server
is better
Ken Sutherland : soock soock
Rusty Tucker That is the focus of TF, the server side.
Rusty Tucker + the BBS client , which is best for its file
transfer capabilities.
Ken Sutherland : but why alienate the PC customer, if you
have cross platform customer and want to sell Telefinder, u tell me
how I convince PC users to have a go
Rusty Tucker and also includes chat, email and
conferencing.
Daryl Hansen joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Daryl!
Ken Sutherland : only about 10% of my support customers are
all Mac
Ken Sutherland : Hi Daryl
Daryl Hansen : Hi Ken
Rusty Tucker It sounds like your "cross-platform" sites are
mainly PC.
Daniel O'Leary : RT what are they losing market to, a win
solution?
Daryl Hansen : The Mail PI has never been so stable
Rusty Tucker QuickMail you mean? To Internet solutions.
Ken Sutherland : nope, most of my customers are graphic
designers, use PC for Admin, Macs for the creative bit
Daniel O'Leary : RT, what server... generic sendmail?
Ken Sutherland : also a simpler solution for ppp dialup would
help
Daniel O'Leary : or HTTPd + cgi
Daniel O'Leary : ???
Rusty Tucker KS - in that arena, TeleFinder is unbeatable for
its file transfer capabilities.
Ken Sutherland : something all inclusive inside TF server,
the installer would set it for you on install
Rusty Tucker I don't see how QuickMail is going to work in
that situation.
Ken Sutherland : You are missing MY point, sorry, but most of
my customers want an internal/external mail solution with file
attachments sometimes
Rusty Tucker With TeleFinder you can use ISDN, Internet, or
modems.
Daniel O'Leary : What we do not have built-in are such things
as parity from TF/User to HTTP.
Rusty Tucker That's very, very flexible.
Ken Sutherland : spped is not always the option, a easy to
maintain solution is most important
Rusty Tucker KS- again POP3/SMTP is the way to go there.
Daniel O'Leary : easy to set up and keep running as the
key.
Ken Sutherland : yes I agree
Rusty Tucker I think TeleFinder delivers a very robust
solution, and easy to admin.
Daryl Hansen : Rusty, Can TFS use the Upload File capability,
without making the file an attachment, just upload a file to a
directory?
Rusty Tucker They can use any POP3 client.
Ken Sutherland : BUT, why not sell into market that wants a
nice easy to run mail system, sometime they don't even want the bbs
part
Rusty Tucker That market is too crowded for me.
Daniel O'Leary : I agree that TF is easy to maintain, but
there are currently some gotcha's in the "as-shipped" setup.
mikael fredriksson : KS with QM you don't have any way to
dial in to the server you need a PPP server (Vicom)
Daniel O'Leary : Much progress has been made to simplify the
initial installation.
Ken Sutherland : QM V5 comes with a dial out ppp gateway
Rusty Tucker DH - it has to be routed through email to get the
attachment converted.
Daniel O'Leary : and the capability is much greater than when
I first started...
Ken Sutherland : want to have a look, I have a 25 user copy
here that MacUser asked me to review
Daryl Hansen : Okay, thnx
Daniel O'Leary : I thought I saw an html page to do a direct
file upload.
Daniel O'Leary : have not tried it though.
Ken Sutherland : I can send the file images sent via the TF
net if u want, all 20 MB
Rusty Tucker DH - the Suzie source is online.
Daryl Hansen : What do I need with Suzie Source?
Daryl Hansen : To hack at it?
Daniel O'Leary : DH I asked for it.
Ken Sutherland : chop sticks
Daniel O'Leary : Figured others might want to see it
also.
Rusty Tucker I thought you were asking me about some Suzie
reqs... Must have been someone else.
Daniel O'Leary : It was me Rt...
Daniel O'Leary : hehehe
Daryl Hansen : Suzie doesn't seem to erase any accounts
created with the Mail-PI
Daryl Hansen : Yep, it was me
Daniel O'Leary : What version does not.
Ken Sutherland : Daryl, have u had any probs with OAT
deleting mail items
Daniel O'Leary : The last version I used would nuke
anything.
Rusty Tucker Time to run.
Daryl Hansen : I don't use OAT
Daryl Hansen : RT:
Daniel O'Leary : The first thing to fix will be URL encoding
user lists.
Ken Sutherland : oops
Rusty Tucker Remember, next chat is
Thursday NIGHT 6 pm PDT
Daryl Hansen : Rusty, a friend of mine is interested in
starting an all Mac ISP on Maui and I have convinced him to use TF.
What else does he need?
Ken Sutherland : why not
Rusty Tucker You can sleed in DH!
Daniel O'Leary : DH VIG and a DNS program.
Daryl Hansen : How does the PPP work?
Rusty Tucker Lots. Don't know If I'd use VIG for ISPing.
Daryl Hansen : VIG does that?
Rusty Tucker I'd use a hardware solution for that.
Ken Sutherland : Daryl, Highlander will be back on the net an
around 24 hrs
Daryl Hansen : What does MacConnect use
Daniel O'Leary : I agree with RT on hardware if you can get
it.
Rusty Tucker They've got some Cisco stuff, and modem
controllers from 3COM
Ken Sutherland : how good is a Cisco 2530
Rusty Tucker MacConnect is not anywhere near all Mac. They
just cater to Mac users.
Daryl Hansen : Where would I find that stuff?
Daniel O'Leary : Heard bad things about 3COM, but have not
confirmed them.
Daryl Hansen : He wants to be all Mac
Daniel O'Leary : How large does he want to get?
Daryl Hansen : How many users will VIG support?
Ken Sutherland : and why not I say
Rusty Tucker I don't think that's gonna scale.
Daryl Hansen : 500-2,000 users
Daniel O'Leary : and what services does he want to offer
them?
Ken Sutherland : why not ARA server 3
Daryl Hansen : Web Space, Internet access, mail
Rusty Tucker ha :)!
Daniel O'Leary : ARA + ARG.
Daryl Hansen : And BBS :)
Ken Sutherland : ppp dialup with AppleTalk on the top
Rusty Tucker that part will work! :)
Daniel O'Leary : ARGH!!!
Daniel O'Leary : TOO SLOW
Ken Sutherland : on your Mac maybe
Rusty Tucker the BBS, keep clear of the ARA though.
Daniel O'Leary : on any Mac Ken.
Rusty Tucker How many lines does he want?
Daryl Hansen : I might even go in on a partnership with the
ISP idea.
Ken Sutherland : ok boss
mikael fredriksson : ARA is only one line
Daryl Hansen : Just 5 to start
Ken Sutherland : server with multiport serial card, Hustler I
think
Daniel O'Leary : 2000/5 is not favorable...
Daryl Hansen : then add more as it grows
Daryl Hansen : Maybe up to 30
Daniel O'Leary : 500/5 is not either.
Ken Sutherland : 200/5 is not that good either
Daryl Hansen : It will take a while to get to 2000
Rusty Tucker I'd poke around Boardwatch and Linux magazines to
see what other guys are doing.
Daryl Hansen : We expect only 50 first few months
Daniel O'Leary : distributed solution is the only way to
go.
mikael fredriksson : get at TribeLink8 or what zoom call it
now
Ken Sutherland : why not use Portmaster
Daryl Hansen : Okay, will do
Rusty Tucker adios! Remember, next
chat is Thursday NIGHT 6 pm PDT!
June 23, 1998 -- ©Copyright 1998, Spider Island Software