TeleFinder Chat from Thurday, February 4, 1999 6 PM PST.
In attendance:
From Spider Island: Rusty Tucker
Sysops: Jim DeHaven, Daniel O'Leary,

Rusty Tucker: hola!
Jim DeHaven: well that sounds cool--an actual connection between TF and the web?
Jim DeHaven: hi rusty
Daniel O'Leary: Hi RT.
Daniel O'Leary: Glad you could make it.
Jim DeHaven: hah
Daniel O'Leary: Yes, JD>
Rusty Tucker: :)
Daniel O'Leary: RT, I think the PI interface has changed and broken the admin. function for HDS email.
Rusty Tucker: I need to set an alarm or something!
Daniel O'Leary: pi_admin.mail does not work now.
Daniel O'Leary: returns a "document has no data" error.
Rusty Tucker: when did that start?
Daniel O'Leary: I do not know, just tested it today.
Rusty Tucker: There was a change for v5.7 that might have affected WebMail.
Rusty Tucker: But nothing since then
Daniel O'Leary: by the way, I have written a new error.spml page, and new user templates.
Rusty Tucker: Jon already knows about the change, but I don't know if he's updated since then or needs too.
Daniel O'Leary: changed your banner load ALT text and broke it out of the templates as a separate include.
Jim DeHaven: what could that change do?--since I had a brief spate of weird occurrences a week ago
Daniel O'Leary: The docs could use some improvements in describing plugin administration.
Daniel O'Leary: from the web.
Daniel O'Leary: I also modified your docs and my SPML test to link up.
Rusty Tucker: I can't find my notes on the change right now. But it was something requested by Jon.
Rusty Tucker: > Macsbugs 6.5.4a5c1, Copyright Apple Computer, Inc. 1981-98
>PowerPC unmapped memory exception at 06EDA5C8 puthere+0001C
> 4-Feb-1999 5:31:49 PM (since boot = 15 days, 1 hour, 23 minutes)
> Current application is "Time Synchronizer"
> Machine = 108 (PowerMac7200), System $0851, sysu = $01008000
Rusty Tucker: 15 days up, and the crash wasn't even my fault!
Rusty Tucker: :)
Daniel O'Leary: you can see it at
Daniel O'Leary: grin.
Rusty Tucker: Plugin admin. is totally up to each plug in.
Daniel O'Leary: I know what was wrong with the time synch I'll bet.
Rusty Tucker: There's nothing general about it.
Rusty Tucker: what's that?
Daniel O'Leary: Bet the server was not available and sys does not know what to do after a certain number of fails.
Rusty Tucker: tried to synch with ""?
Daniel O'Leary: Haha
Rusty Tucker: I know what it does then.
Daniel O'Leary: Nah, with M$
Daniel O'Leary: hehe
Rusty Tucker: It throws up an alert that stops the front program from running.
Rusty Tucker: That happened to me in Dec.
Rusty Tucker: Time should be running except at midnight anyway. Its weird.
Daniel O'Leary: In other news I have apparently fixed the dialogs in Suzie, but I do not know why the ones in it do not work.. Only affected the checkboxes and radio buttons.
Daniel O'Leary: My fix was to copy the text in the buttons and paste it back in as static texts.
Rusty Tucker: Good!
Rusty Tucker: oh.
Daniel O'Leary: Works just fine.
Rusty Tucker: That's still a bit broken then
Rusty Tucker: It really needs the dlogs and ditls to be recreated from scratch.
Daniel O'Leary: The button text is still there, but undisplayed.
Daniel O'Leary: I saw no attribute that was different than dialogs in other applications that display properly.
Rusty Tucker: JD - did you find out more about JScript on G3's?
Jim DeHaven: no--this was something I ran into only last night
Rusty Tucker: I don't think JScript uses the VM. It's not Java.
Daniel O'Leary: I will be getting a 400 MHz G3 server soon.
Daniel O'Leary: Wife's Performa died and I think it was the power supply.
Jim DeHaven: actually I have seen it all along--that my G3's cant do JavaScript properly with MSIE 3.0
Rusty Tucker: But maybe the old MS VM had JScript support in it, and of course the Mac VM wouldn't
Jim DeHaven: but last night I went to a 5400 and it worked fine
Daniel O'Leary: Shreve Systems want $250 for a refurb... outrageous.
Jim DeHaven: the 5400 uses Microsoft's vm (if you choose)
Jim DeHaven: but the G3 does not
Daniel O'Leary: The Moderator of the APPLE Fido echo is online my system
Daniel O'Leary: A TF success story.
Jim DeHaven: this started by the way
Jim DeHaven: because our school now uses
Jim DeHaven: a commercial CGI provider !!!#$@%!
Jim DeHaven: I didn't know such a thing exists
Rusty Tucker: what is that?
Jim DeHaven: but they actually pay someone
Jim DeHaven: to get the message from a pull down menu
Jim DeHaven: from the form
Daniel O'Leary: Oh someone to write CGI's?
Jim DeHaven: and then to refer the browser to another page on our site
Jim DeHaven: yes they sell it as a service--you contact their server
Jim DeHaven: the height of weeniness
Rusty Tucker: ooohh! :) -- there's a free sample with TeleFinder that does that
Jim DeHaven:
Daniel O'Leary: hit em RT.
Jim DeHaven: well I mean this is easy stuff
Rusty Tucker: :)
Jim DeHaven: you can steal it off of all these 12 year olds who put their stuff up on the web
Jim DeHaven: like taking candy from a ...well...12 year old
Rusty Tucker: exactly -- as long as they're paying...
Rusty Tucker: send 'me my way :)
Jim DeHaven: this is because our publicity director runs our web site (the main one)
Jim DeHaven: I run the other 2
Daniel O'Leary: I've been writing some CGI's in Perl.
Jim DeHaven: the ones that actually work
Jim DeHaven: and have content on them
Daniel O'Leary: I need to quit doing that and focus on the Mac.
Jim DeHaven: right now the library has put up pages that use JavaScript to call windows
Rusty Tucker: :)
Jim DeHaven: pages written using hot metal
Jim DeHaven: when they put it into front page
Jim DeHaven: it munges out all the window descriptors
Jim DeHaven: and they lose their scrollbars
Jim DeHaven: and status bars
Daniel O'Leary: My problem is that I learned Unix Borne, and C shells before I learned the Mac.
Jim DeHaven: they can't FTP it except using FrontPage
Jim DeHaven: because they don't know how to ftp to our Microsoft server
Rusty Tucker: They don't know how to use FTP?
Jim DeHaven: even the people who run the server
Jim DeHaven: they only know how to use the automatic upload that front page supplies
Rusty Tucker: Oh, MS Server doesn't have FTP... just some kind of Front Page extensions for uploading or something.
Rusty Tucker: haven't figured out exactly what that is yet
Jim DeHaven: exactly!!!!
Rusty Tucker: I don't think it's FTP
Rusty Tucker: it may be an HTTP extension
Jim DeHaven: so I suggested they use the protect tags--I think there is something like that which will protect your html code from poorly behaved html page makers--I am not sure since I never had to use it
Daniel O'Leary: God I hate M$.
Jim DeHaven: but the whole situation is pretty funny
Rusty Tucker: No such thing as a "protected" tag
Daniel O'Leary: RT did you see what happened this week there.
Rusty Tucker: but there may be a tag you can put into the page to tell FrontPage to lay off
Jim DeHaven: are you sure Rusty?
Jim DeHaven: I could have sworn I read about one
Rusty Tucker: yes, not according to the HTML 3 spec anyway
Jim DeHaven: or was this a variation of the "left-handed smoke shifter"
Daniel O'Leary: Hehe
Rusty Tucker: again, MS may have a custom tag that tells Front page to not mess with a page
Rusty Tucker: didn't hear about that one
Jim DeHaven: its a boy scout thing
Rusty Tucker: must be an east coast thing
Rusty Tucker: ahh
Daniel O'Leary: Like a <PRE> tag that renders but does not alter.
Daniel O'Leary: grin.
Jim DeHaven: you send a kid looking for a left handed smoke shifter--and everyone sends him to someone else
Jim DeHaven: kind of like Kafka's castle with a prepubescent angle
Rusty Tucker: :)
Daniel O'Leary: What's the status of your Cam PI RT?
Rusty Tucker: off right now
Rusty Tucker: I can bring it up if you want
Jim DeHaven:
Daniel O'Leary: Am using CU to display and ServerScreenCapture here. Want something better.
Rusty Tucker: oh yeah, this is better than that :)
Jim DeHaven: Oval Office Cam
Rusty Tucker: yep explorer
Daniel O'Leary: When do I get to play?
Rusty Tucker: /tv
Rusty Tucker: I guess I should put it online or something
Daniel O'Leary: Somebody just hit my link to it... Need to turn the cam away from the wall.
Rusty Tucker: tv/tv.html
Daniel O'Leary: There you go.
Jim DeHaven: yep--looking pensive
Daniel O'Leary: A bird's eye view... cam is on a tripod above me
Rusty Tucker: I didn't get the optimizations into it that I want. but it seems to work ok
Rusty Tucker: the usual glassy eyed stare into the monitor
Daniel O'Leary: Here you go:>
Rusty Tucker: is that the fake video story?
Rusty Tucker: not very smart for a bunch of smart guys
Daniel O'Leary: Yes.
Jim DeHaven: Hmmm--seems to be a broken link there
Daniel O'Leary: hehe I LOVE it.
Jim DeHaven: not yet ready for prime time?
Rusty Tucker: no -- jus a play toy so far
Rusty Tucker: they're very scared I'm sure
Daniel O'Leary: I like it RT.
Daniel O'Leary: It worked here JD.
Daniel O'Leary: Maybe a concurrent session problem.
Jim DeHaven: oh it works fine
Daniel O'Leary: "The Source" link did not work though.
Jim DeHaven: I meant the link that says "source"
Rusty Tucker: right the source is located elsewhere.
Jim DeHaven: rusty--stop picking your nose
Rusty Tucker: finally, the Java component will consume all the browser memory
Rusty Tucker: and you'll crash
Rusty Tucker: Java's not supposed to do that of course... but hey
Daniel O'Leary: The M$ guys are running scared eh?
Daniel O'Leary: They are making some very bad moves in that courtroom.
Jim DeHaven: whoops
Rusty Tucker: Well, just think about the Clinton idiots coming over to destroy your company.
Rusty Tucker: I'm sure that's how they have to see it.
Daniel O'Leary: The DOJ is very sharp this time.
Rusty Tucker: Janet Reno and the gang...
Daniel O'Leary: Boies and Company don't miss a trick.
Rusty Tucker: who knows what can come from that
Jim DeHaven: yes--what can happen to Microsoft can happen to....
Daniel O'Leary: Three witnesses, three debacles at the stand, or is it four.
Daniel O'Leary: grin.
Rusty Tucker: Its a lesson in what arrogance can do to you
Daniel O'Leary: RT, I was thinking last night about how much you have extended TF's capability and largely maintained compatibility. You deserve a pat on the back for that one.
Rusty Tucker: it hasn't been easy
Jim DeHaven: oh all right, yes I agree
Rusty Tucker: especially when I added the background transfer capabilities
Daniel O'Leary: Most commercial software developers appear to deliberately introduce file-level incompatibility in their product to force additional sales on their customers.
Daniel O'Leary: You should consider mentioning this in your sales literature.
Rusty Tucker: That's OK for single user products
Rusty Tucker: but not for online stuff
Rusty Tucker: A user of Word 4 can keep using it to make memos, he doesn't need to share files to make the product work
Rusty Tucker: any last ones before we wrap up?
Daniel O'Leary: The problem is that that user cannot make use of simple text documents created by successor versions.
Daniel O'Leary: He is forced to upgrade because he can't read his inbound.
Daniel O'Leary: Did you see my post on Variables.
Rusty Tucker: yeah, email is changing that around quite bit
Jim DeHaven: yes but you could have made the TeleFinder message documents unreadable for example under the guise of upgrades
Daniel O'Leary: Would like to see a directive to <!--#IF DIR_LIST contains -->
Rusty Tucker: Its' definitely easier to take that route. A lot less work
Jim DeHaven: want to use the new server? all the clients have to upgrade
Jim DeHaven: and you need to pay a fee
Daniel O'Leary: AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Jim DeHaven: not to give you any ideas
Rusty Tucker: I think that would be a negative for the sysops
Rusty Tucker: upgrade your server and all your clients need to upgrade?
Rusty Tucker: who would go for that?
Daniel O'Leary: The benefit must be compelling.
Daniel O'Leary: Not just imagined, to marginal
Rusty Tucker: It would have to be outrageous
Rusty Tucker: that opens the door for your competitors too.
Rusty Tucker: since their upgrade would be no more work that yours
Daniel O'Leary: I do not understand why the consumer base has not figured this out and just said "Enough!" with their current and future purchase dollars.
Jim DeHaven: well I have seen Macromedia charge 200 bucks for precisely that
Daniel O'Leary: I am really tilting a windmill at work about this one.
Jim DeHaven: a cosmetic change and a few bug-fixes and a new file format
Rusty Tucker: hey I gotta run
Daniel O'Leary: I figured out how much money my company wastes on supporting that which will be broken in a year or two's time.
Jim DeHaven: bye
Rusty Tucker: see you guys nest time
Daniel O'Leary: Take care RT. Give my SPML idea some thought.
Rusty Tucker: yep

February 24, 1999 -- ©Copyright 1999, Spider Island Software