TeleFinder Chat Log

Text of TeleFinder Chat from Tuesday, February 3, 1998 11 AM PST.

In attendance:

From Spider Island: Rusty Tucker,

Sysops: mikael fredriksson, Michael Davidson, Bob Wright, Bill Gram-Reefer, Ken Sutherland, Jim Smith, Bob Nunn

mikael fredriksson: <<joined the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: <<joined the chat>>

mikael fredriksson: hi

Rusty Tucker: back again

Michael Davidson: <<joined the chat>>

mikael fredriksson: hi

Michael Davidson: Hi Mikael

Rusty Tucker: 5.6.2b3 is released now

mikael fredriksson: RT have you seen my broken copy of User Manager? any idea why?

Michael Davidson: Hey I wanted to thank you mikael for your info about IPNetRouter...

Michael Davidson: Although, my cable modem supplier says I can't use it (new policy)

Rusty Tucker: i got it, but it came as a Eudora file, and I could not get the app out

mikael fredriksson: did it work?

Rusty Tucker: Usually that happens due to a system crash or disk problem

Michael Davidson: I got it to work, but then it quit working for some odd reason

Bob Wright: <<joined the chat>>

Ken Sutherland: <<joined the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: hi all

Michael Davidson: That leads me to another question:

Rusty Tucker: 5.6.2b3 is online

Ken Sutherland: morning

Michael Davidson: Can an ISP (cable modem) tell if you are masking? Supposedly, they have "snoopers"

Michael Davidson: Hi Ken

Michael Davidson: Tell us about what is new in 5.6.2b3 RT

Rusty Tucker: a couple of small fixes and the new 'log naming/roll over' options in the web server

Rusty Tucker: it's very flexible, you supply your own name template ( based on the clock ), and when the name changes

Michael Davidson: Did you get my email about the log names Rusty...I thought it would be the best way to solve the weekly problem

Rusty Tucker: the file rolls over

Rusty Tucker: Yes, thanks. This solution will let you do it in any format you want.

Michael Davidson: Help me with the concept "the file rolls over"

Bill Gram-Reefer: <<joined the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: I'm using a weekly format ( webserver %Y-wk#%U.log ) which makes names like webserver 1998-wk#05.log

Rusty Tucker: Roll-Over is when one log closes and a new one opens

Michael Davidson: ok

Bob Nunn: <<joined the chat>>

Bob Nunn: Sorry I'm Late BRB

Rusty Tucker: I've included some sample name formats for monthly and daily log files too.

Michael Davidson: But I could choose to use a daily log based on my template websvr %Y-day#%U.log which would come out as websvr 1998-day36.log??

Rusty Tucker: you'd need to use %Y-day#%j.log for 'day of the year'

Rusty Tucker: it would make 1998-day#36.log

Michael Davidson: or even websvr %Y-mo#%?-day#%j.log (? a letter I don't know)

Rusty Tucker: month is %m for 2 digit month number

Michael Davidson: cool...then everybody can be happy.

Rusty Tucker: Just make sure the resultant name will always be 31 chars or less!

Michael Davidson: but I'm sure you have coded for those kinds of human errors, no?

Rusty Tucker: #include formats the names using this as well

Rusty Tucker: yes, if you mess up, you'll get webserver.log, or no log at all

Michael Davidson: That'll teach ya! :)

Rusty Tucker: I'm using this on my homepage log file now.

Bob Wright: Is there an automatic way of taking a mailing list and making it available to all users as a newsgroup?

Michael Davidson: Back to my previous ? : Can an ISP (cable modem ISP) really tell if you are masking IP#? Supposedly, they have "snoopers"

Rusty Tucker: It keeps my referral logging file small

Michael Davidson: Use OAT BW

Michael Davidson: Tell him Ken

Bill Gram-Reefer: doesn't OAT have a way of doing that?

Rusty Tucker: Only if they give you a class C address, otherwise the masking won't do anything.

Rusty Tucker: They can use PING to see if you have more than one active address.

Michael Davidson: That's the most feature I liked best about OAT

Bob Wright: I don't want to start wars here, but #1 - about a year ago OAT trashed my system and #2 - I recently asked for an access code and never heard back from anyone :/

Michael Davidson: A little clearer RT...they will give me an IP#, can I have other machines use the cable modem if I mask their local IP#s with IPNetRouter or even VIG

Rusty Tucker: I used to map a list subscriber account's mailpath into the "files" area.

Rusty Tucker: Then all email received would be automatically online.

Ken Sutherland: sorry, beating up kids, what's up

Rusty Tucker: MD - no, not with only 1 IP address.

Michael Davidson: I wish you could automate the mailing lists Rusty. ...

Michael Davidson: It's a great feature, and should not be much for you to implement

Jim Smith: <<joined the chat>>

Bill Gram-Reefer: !

Bob Wright: RT: that is what I was thinking I could do...just point a files area to a mailbox and then viola, all is working, right?

Rusty Tucker: Yep - I used to do that with Evangelist

Michael Davidson: No, Bob, it would be individual files, not a Topic

Ken Sutherland: Bob, first of all, at that time OAT was beta, so I'm sorry but you were made aware of possible problems, 2, iv sent you 3 codes in the last 2 weeks

Bob Wright: KS: as I said, I am not trying to start a war here :) ....however, I knew as beta I would have crashes...but, and MORE important, the codes you sent me were NOT for OAT, they were for HDS :)

Rusty Tucker: BGR- what's ! ?

Michael Davidson: I wish you could have UM distinguish a user from a list, and if it is a list, send the email (list served) to a topic not a user

Rusty Tucker: If what is a list?

Bill Gram-Reefer: MD's statement above...easier said than done

Rusty Tucker: ya :)

Ken Sutherland: bask in 5, got to go beat u the kids again 8-)

Rusty Tucker: Email coming from a list cannot be apriori distinguished from other email.

Bob Wright: RT: but email coming from a list would be listed as individual topics, right?

Michael Davidson: Ok, in UM, have users and list names. If the name is a List, then instead of sending the email to a user, put the line in the email to send it to the local topic instead of to a regular email user address...sorry if unclear

Bob Wright: I have a mailing list which generates lesson plans...all I want is to have this mailing list on my TF BBS as a newsgroup for teachers to read. This way I don't have 2,000 teachers subscribing to the same mailing list

Michael Davidson: No Bob

Rusty Tucker: The method I used put the messages in as individual email files.

Bob Wright: If I store the mail as POP3 and then put a path to the mailbox as a files area, why wont that work?

Rusty Tucker: I think that's what OAT will already do MD, no?

Michael Davidson: Yes, RT, it is the same as regular email. But if UM could have a checkbox to say the "user" is really a list (not a user) then you could add the X-local-To_Conference in the email and send it to a Conference instead

Rusty Tucker: it will, they will be stored as individual Pop3 files

Michael Davidson: Won't have the Conference Index file bob

Michael Davidson: Thus, it will be a folder full of files, not a conference Bob

Bob Wright: I don't mind individual Pop3 files...its an area for reading, now posting :)

Rusty Tucker: yep, it work well.

Rusty Tucker: you can use POP3 or TF format

Michael Davidson: Then it will work for you Bob

Bob Wright: well, cant I set it up as a topic area and have MS delete the files after 100 messages or whatever?

Michael Davidson: But still, is it true Rusty, that an email file that has a X-Local-Conference-To: field would go to a Conference?

Bob Wright: good..problem solved for me :)

Rusty Tucker: Yes, I think that would do it MD.

Michael Davidson: No, abut the deleting automatically

Rusty Tucker: It should be pretty easy to make a gateway to get those msgs and feed them back to mail server for local posting.

Bob Wright: ya sure it wont delete auto? It does it now for my topic areas

Michael Davidson: So,if UM could have a way to distinguish users from Lists, it would be easy to handle mailing lists for sysops, correct

Rusty Tucker: It doesn't need to be that complex MD.

Michael Davidson: BUT Bob, this is a folder full of files, not a Conference with an index file that gets its files "Trimmed"

Ken Sutherland: make it easy for yourself, use OAT for that task

Rusty Tucker: yes.

Bob Nunn: May be an oversimplification I name my user lists things like MacWay List That's how I handle lists.

Bob Wright: MD: I see now...my goof

Michael Davidson: I thought I was giving you an easy way to do it for us Rusty!! :)

Rusty Tucker: There is _already_ an easy way to do it!

Michael Davidson: It's email, so UM can handle the "email user" part

Bob Wright: KS: again, two things come to mind: #1 justifying the price of OAT for using only ONE of its features, and #2 cant seem to get an access code to see if the other features are needed :)

Michael Davidson: Do you mean OAT RT?

Rusty Tucker: There's no sense for me duplicating what is already done somewhere else.

Rusty Tucker: yes

Michael Davidson: But BW, made a good point above...price of OAT for one feature (a very useful to many sysop feature)

Bob Wright: RT: its not duplicating when OAT has OTHER features

Bob Wright: I am not putting OAT down at all...I personally like the help feature...but I don't need a lot of the other features...

Bill Gram-Reefer: RT- have you talked to the FreePPP guys yet?

Rusty Tucker: You need to talk to Ken about his bundling policy. I think each feature should be made available as a stand-alone.

Bob Wright: I would LOVE to have the feature of OAT that allows students/teachers email a "robot" and get an answer :)

Michael Davidson: OAT does do it well though, I have to give em that. I never had any problem with the mail list feature.

Bob Wright: RT: agreed...buy parts of OAT. ken, are you game for that?

Bob Wright: oops...not email a robot, but IM a robot :)

Michael Davidson: you can email one too bob

Rusty Tucker: No, I have not Bill.

Rusty Tucker: not yet.

Bob Wright: MD: yes, but I like knowing a student can send an IM like "help profile" and get an answer back on how to create a profile :)

Rusty Tucker: My guess it that it probably does work ( FreePPP connect loss notification )

Bob Wright: KS: do you want to look into making OAT available as a "per feature needed" program?

Ken Sutherland: bob, we are working on a robot with artificial intelligence

Michael Davidson: I think you use something like "E0" in you modem config and that helps that problem RT with FreePPP

Bill Gram-Reefer: but TF and MS still need to know about a disconnect and refresh

Michael Davidson2: <<joined the chat>>

Ken Sutherland: you mean a utility app that adds over 20 features is expensive at $150

Rusty Tucker: It's not the price / feature/

Bill Gram-Reefer: KS- like Communigate from Stalker...a base app with interface that is extensible

Rusty Tucker: That's a very good deal.

Michael Davidson: <<left the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: Bob would probably pay $20 or $30 for the "one" feature he wants.

Ken Sutherland: and very expensive to implement in dev time

Rusty Tucker: Like HDS Web Mail -- it gets more $ as a stand alone than in the bundle.

Michael Davidson: <<joined the chat>>

Michael Davidson: am I back?? Test

Bob Nunn: I think most of us only use part of the features. I still think it is worth the money. If it were modular I would have only bought parts.

Bill Gram-Reefer: but price the modules so if 2-3 are purchased probably adds up to more than $150

Rusty Tucker: That's generally the preferred way to purchase add-ons., feature by feature.

Ken Sutherland: i don't agree, oat has grown from sysop requests, it is a combination of features, also some features require other to run

Bob Nunn: Until I started using it I never realized how great the postmaster feature is. I never new how much mail was misdirected.

Michael Davidson: Yes, Ken makes a good point. A lot of the features do work from the same basic core.

Michael Davidson: Maybe, though Ken, you could sell the core with each feature added on

Ken Sutherland: we could remove some features but its messy

Michael Davidson: I mean, sell the core app and then sell each feature as an add on

Rusty Tucker: Just ask Proctor and Gamble or Gillette how it works :)

Ken Sutherland: also not a lot of sysops use the mail compression feature, you can reduce mail by as much as 66% in size

Michael Davidson: It would take redoing some code to get the core separate from the modules

Rusty Tucker: Its easier to say than actually implement correctly :)

Michael Davidson: I never said it would be easy...:)

Bill Gram-Reefer: Sure, but maybe KS can do it in a way where he only has to create one interface, not 20

Michael Davidson: What is the line that directs Mail Server to send to a local conference anyway : is it X-Conference-To: ???

Michael Davidson2: <<left the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: It's something that I have considered with the web server too, give it away and sell add on's to it.

Rusty Tucker: TF BBS being a -big- add on.

Ken Sutherland: what about my customers who have already paid, you want me to refund them....(

Michael Davidson: :)

Bill Gram-Reefer: sharp as a razor that RT

Rusty Tucker: And smaller ones to.

Michael Davidson: a Rusty razor?? :)

Rusty Tucker: I'm gonna CUT YA!

Michael Davidson: get your Tetanus (sp?) shot

Ken Sutherland: how about a keycode that gets upgraded, only activation areas as needed

Rusty Tucker: No Ken, you make it happen at the same time as releasing a new module, and you give that one for free.

Rusty Tucker: That's' one way.

Michael Davidson: Guys, does anybody here run their own DNS server or do you use the ISP's?

Rusty Tucker: Or you give them the full unbundled set.

Ken Sutherland: sorry, I'm using a pc, my mac is down, cant get used to the crap keyboard

Rusty Tucker: or make a cheap upgrade to the unbundled set

Rusty Tucker: I run QuickDNS pro

mikael fredriksson: I run QuickDNS

Michael Davidson: Is that commercial? and if so, how much? Can I have my ISP be my DNS

Bill Gram-Reefer: But RT, would you be able to go back and make the web server so people would pay extra for say SPML capabilities?

Bill Gram-Reefer: Don't refund, KS...upgrade them. That's most of Adobe's business is upgrade, not new tech.

Michael Davidson: Isn't there a freeware MacDNS, is it any good?

mikael fredriksson: http://www.menandmice.com for info on QuickDNS pro

mikael fredriksson: it work but its is slow

Michael Davidson: I agree with BGR Ken about the upgrade

Michael Davidson: Thanks mikael

Ken Sutherland: at the cost of the modules and the admin, it gets to a point when I have to say, is it worth it, we put 18 months into oat, looks like i should have spent my time doing something else

Michael Davidson: do you mean the ISP as my DNS is slow mikael

mikael fredriksson: the free one

Michael Davidson: o

mikael fredriksson: QuickDNS is fast

Bob Nunn: What about Apple's MacDNS program, it's free isn't it?

mikael fredriksson: no the free DNS program slow

Michael Davidson: But, can my cable modem ISP act as my DNS or will that be too slow?

Ken Sutherland: its getting to the point of killing oats future, when we ran beta tests we had over 50 sysops running it. cost was never a issue?

Michael Davidson: Yes, Bob N, I believe its free (but that's about all I know about it)

mikael fredriksson: Apples is slow to if you compare with QuickDNS

Bob Nunn: I think you could just list anyone's DNS server and it would work is that not true?

Michael Davidson: The more local though Bob, I think the better; but I would like an answer to your ? from somebody that knows more than I

Michael Davidson: That would be anybody here I think

Bill Gram-Reefer: not me

Michael Davidson: I don't want to have to deal with DNS unless I have to

mikael fredriksson: Your cable companies DNS server should work more than OK (you only need to run your own DNS if you have your own servers on the internet and want change configs your self)

Michael Davidson: Thanks mikael. So if I want to have a sub server to my domain (eg., mail.mydomain.com), I would have my own DNS

Bill Gram-Reefer: cu Friday bye

Rusty Tucker: bye

Bill Gram-Reefer: <<left the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: Any last Q's before wrapping up today?

mikael fredriksson: then you don't have to wait for them to change your domain setup in their DNS

Ken Sutherland: rusty, in my window, you are not listed in

Michael Davidson: ok, I think I have it mikael. Thanks again

Rusty Tucker: ( don't forget to get 5.6.2b3 )

Jim Smith: <<left the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: c u all Friday