Text of TeleFinder Chat from Friday, February 27, 1998 11 AM PST.

In attendance:

From Spider Island: Rusty Tucker,

Sysops: Jim Smith, Bob Nunn, mikael fredriksson, Ken Sutherland, Bob Wright, Bill Gram-Reefer, Michael Davidson, Bob Wright, George

Jim Smith: <<joined the chat>>

Bob Nunn: <<joined the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: <<joined the chat>>

mikael fredriksson: <<joined the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: hola!

mikael fredriksson: <<left the chat>>

mikael fredriksson: <<joined the chat>>

Bob Nunn: hello

Rusty Tucker: Having good luck with server b8?

Bob Nunn: Not sure it is down right this minute. Called my Powerkey just now.

Bob Nunn: Its back up now.

Ken Sutherland: <<joined the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: The first revs with the larger background packets had a memory over-write problem.

mikael fredriksson: mine has been online for 20 hours

Rusty Tucker: That was causing the "freeze" reports when transfering files.

Michael Davidson: <<joined the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: The next rev will support "Replacing" files when transferring.

Rusty Tucker: ( So you don't need to delete them first )

Rusty Tucker: It's an option in the "new name" dialog.

Rusty Tucker: Also, a folder won't need to be empty to delete it.

Rusty Tucker: -- and , when deleting a Topic icon, the server will delete the ¥ folder too.

Ken Sutherland: bout time 8-)

Michael Davidson: (yea! on the non-empty folder delete)

Bob Nunn: Like the replacing bit, will have to be more cautious but that's how FTP works anyway.

Rusty Tucker: I'm going to make the non-cofirming replace a preference option

Michael Davidson: Will there be a "Do you want to replace xxx" dialog?

Michael Davidson: spoke too soon

Bill Gram-Reefer: <<joined the chat>>

Ken Sutherland: any chance of folder copy please!

Rusty Tucker: It will be better for people maintaining web sites just to replace all the time without confirmation, like FTP

Ken Sutherland: option copy

Rusty Tucker: Folder Upload/Download is in the works. Not for the next beta, but soon. It takes a bit more work.

Ken Sutherland: no prob, only been asking for it for 3 years

Michael Davidson: Yea for the folder upload/dload!!! I would really like that one.

Bob Nunn: My system has restarted itself 11 times since I installed b8. While it restarts usually a few times each day that is up. haven't been there to check it though.

Ken Sutherland: rusty, as i have said to you on the phone, thanks for all the wee mods recently , its been a nice surprise

Bill Gram-Reefer: RT, what/.where do I put Little scripts...in their folder in the TF User folder?

Rusty Tucker: hmm.. do you run the "StartCrashLog" program to catch the std logs?

Rusty Tucker: ^ for BN

Bill Gram-Reefer: Heh, who's in charge of HDS mail?

Rusty Tucker: brb

Ken Sutherland: me

Ken Sutherland: and yes your keycode is in the mail

Bill Gram-Reefer: I sent in request for keycode for demo Tuesday...go the 24 hr. response but still no keycode

Bill Gram-Reefer: so's the check<g>

Bob Nunn: Yes, I ll second that. Love the quoting and the file transfer imp. Haven't been but will put it back in the start up.

Bill Gram-Reefer: OK KS

Ken Sutherland: when is the next beta's being posted, is it worth

Ken Sutherland: downloading current files

Bill Gram-Reefer: I just got b8 and only crash this a.m. was Netscape

Bob Nunn: Probably right after you finish KS

Ken Sutherland: forgive my ignorance but what does the "StartCrashLog" program do , what do i need and how do i get it to work"? automatically

Bob Nunn: ;-)

Rusty Tucker: It puts Macsbugs into a special logging mode.

Bob Nunn: Macsbugs installed and put it in the start up folder.

Ken Sutherland: what macsbug version?

Rusty Tucker: If the system crashes, it captures a 'stdlog' and restarts the system.

Michael Davidson: Rusty, I really appreciate that you are shoring up User in these little but important ways (quoting, deleting non-empty folders, working on up/downloading folders, etc.)

Ken Sutherland: smart

Ken Sutherland: does it work every time?

Rusty Tucker: "StopCrashLog" takes it out of that mode, and makes it "normal" again.

Rusty Tucker: It works every time that

Rusty Tucker: a- the system drops into Macsbugs

Rusty Tucker: b- the 'rs' command works

Rusty Tucker: If the system is in an infinite loop, it doesn't catch that.

Rusty Tucker: It needs to be a crash, and Macsbugs must be working.

Ken Sutherland: great, that's me covered for 80% of the time 8-)

Bob Nunn: 6.5.4a3c1 is the latest version I am aware of. SCREAM RS

Michael Davidson: BGR, did you see FreePPP 2.6.2 is out and has some fixes for dropped connections?

Ken Sutherland: Christ, they only just got 2.6 out the door

Bill Gram-Reefer: i was working with the beta but it had problems so am back to PPP

Michael Davidson: No, the final 2.6.2 is just out a couple days ago.

Bob Nunn: Do most of you run Macsbugs most of the time??

Michael Davidson: Not I BN

Rusty Tucker: BGR- those probs were probably TF Bugs, not FreePPP bugs

mikael fredriksson: I use Macsbug on my system and the StartCrashLog

Rusty Tucker: I run Macsbugs all the time

Jim Smith: Yes, BN.

Rusty Tucker: gotta remember to install StartCrashLog though :)

Bob Nunn: Well I have been but thought perhaps it might be resetting my system instead of allowing it to recover on its on. Guess I still have problems though.

Rusty Tucker: no probs here since putting b8 online.

Bob Nunn: I thought it might be traffic but your site gets more. I do serve that database though and have lasso.acgi still running. Will move to FM4 and eliminate it this weekend.

Rusty Tucker: -- since putting "Hit Chart" online, I've seen some crashes in "FCompress" Haven't traced that out yet.

Rusty Tucker: None have occurred for about a week or so though, but QuickTime was crashing while making the JPEGs.

Michael Davidson: What version of QT?

Rusty Tucker: You might take Hit Chart and Mandel out if you're running into problems there.

Rusty Tucker: v2.5

Bob Nunn: Its down again. I just ran my report page which has it.

Rusty Tucker: that may be it then

Bob Nunn: Will strip out the plugins this weekend.

Bill Gram-Reefer: man, i think some of these debuggers cause their own crashes. When I was using NUM crash guard it was telling me the Finder had crashed 3 times a day.

Ken Sutherland: snap

Rusty Tucker: Use Macsbugs, it - only- kicks in when the system crashes. It just sits there otherwise. No problem.

Bob Nunn: I do also know that the PowerKey does some of its own resets when it isn't needed. I can't live without it though. Better to have it than not.

Ken Sutherland: QT 3.0f7

Ken Sutherland: 6.5mb

Bob Wright: <<joined the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: Ken - is there some significance associated with that info ? :)

Michael Davidson: Rusty, any more improvements to User in the works that you would like to share with us?

Bob Wright: hello?

Bill Gram-Reefer: so back to FreePPP test of new rev 2.6.2 Is there cause to use Okey Dokey with FreePPP as well?

Ken Sutherland: MD asked

Bob Nunn: Hey Bob,

Michael Davidson: I think he wanted to say the new QT is large

Bob Wright: RT: anyway to get 5.6.2b4 NOT to speak every time someone enters and leaves a room?

Bob Wright: Bob N: howdy!

Rusty Tucker: turn off speech?

Bob Wright: RT: than I wont hear the text speak

Ken Sutherland: do it auto for user when it gets << or >>

Bob Wright: Its annoying listening to "less than less than........greater than greater than:

Michael Davidson: I think you need to use Okey with FreePPP, but I don't know with 2.6.2; I would use it till I found out I didn't need it.

Bob Wright: Particularly when I first joined the room and ten people were online..that was QUITE annoying hearing "less than less than...greater than greater than"

Rusty Tucker: isn't there some way to edit the Macintalk dictionary?

Michael Davidson: is there a way to have silent letters instead of less than

Bob Wright: I don't know...is there?

Bob Nunn: I would like to know if there is..

Rusty Tucker: I've got a little list of items here for 5.6.2 user..

Michael Davidson: probably easier to use something different than the less than and more than symbols, something that doesn't make a sound

mikael fredriksson: And me that have trouble to get it to speak after I lost my startup disk

Rusty Tucker: - Upload and Download folders

Michael Davidson: or just leave the sounds out and use capital letters instead

Bob Wright: RT: but the new look in the mailbox is GREAT....but the "less than less than...greater than greater than" thing has to go ;)

Michael Davidson: Tell us more RT!

Rusty Tucker: Keep the xfrs Window in one place when there are a lot of xfrs. ( so it doesn't keep "popping up" )

Rusty Tucker: The "Replacing" file transfers.

Michael Davidson: I meant "just leave the SYMBOLS (not sounds) out and use capital letters instead"

Rusty Tucker: A "Transfer log" type of window, that shows Past and Queued transfers.

Bob Wright: RT: and though this is no big deal, I can shift-click items from the mailbox ONLY IF I don't click on the field with the login and date.

Rusty Tucker: The Transfer log will let you "Suspend or Cancel" the pending transfers too.

Rusty Tucker: BW- do you know when that started?

Bill Gram-Reefer: gotta run guys see you soon bye

Michael Davidson: Suspend, even if not zmodem

Bob Wright: RT: MD has a good point :)

Bill Gram-Reefer: <<left the chat>>

Michael Davidson: e.g., Joe Cool: JOINED THE CHAT

Bob Wright: RT: when I upgraded to 5.6.2b4 version of TFUser

Rusty Tucker: OK - I'll check that out, what did you use before?

Bob Wright: I went from 5.5.1 to 5.6.2b4

Rusty Tucker: OK- thanks

Bob Wright: Even then I could not shift-click on the login and date field

Bob Wright: In fact, the only way to shift-click was by clicking on the icon

Rusty Tucker: MD- the current beta's support Transfer Recovery, even in the background protocol.

Ken Sutherland: please have xfrs at front when used

Rusty Tucker: KS?

Michael Davidson: o, didn't realize that.

Bob Wright: So is there way to get rid of this "less than less than....greater than greater than" 'problem'??

Rusty Tucker: I'll have to think about it. I don't want to use all caps, its FUGLY

Bob Wright: Hearing something like that will blow the minds of k-5 students

George: <<joined the chat>>

Bob Wright: without the voice feature, chat is USELESS for k-5 students. Half of them cant read

Michael Davidson: How bout, just have their name instead of "<<joined the chat>>

Ken Sutherland: with the xfrs at front i know when someone is transfering just by looking at screen

Rusty Tucker: I'll have to see how Chris implemented the chat speaker.

Michael Davidson: E.g., Rusty Tucker: Rusty Tucker

Bob Wright: RT: thanky! 8-)

Rusty Tucker: I'd like to keep the screen as is, but make it say "Rusty Tucker left the chat"

Bob Wright: RT: that will be ok :)

Rusty Tucker: rb

Rusty Tucker: ok

Bob Wright: I don't get the difference with the chat that I have now and the "chat rooms" you put in the newer version of TF?!?!?!

Michael Davidson: It would be nice to have the << and >> on screen and have it not speak them, but I would rather have no >>'s than have it say them.

George: <<left the chat>>

Ken Sutherland: RT, the download basket, any chance of it having persistent memory until download confirmed please, ie you could download a selection of files over a number of logons?

Rusty Tucker: KS - I want to make the transfer window stay wherever you leave it.

Rusty Tucker: The earlier versions did not log users entering and leaving the room.

Ken Sutherland: how do i specify the window

Michael Davidson: Concerning Kens idea and the transfer log idea. It would be nice to be able to keep a "to be dloaded " list in the Transfer window for latter dload (like AOL kind of)

Bob Wright: What does this mean, RT: adds "Chat Channel" records to Access Groups to support use of

Chat Rooms at any level of the BBS.

Bob Wright: So I can log or record the chats?

Rusty Tucker: Go to "TeleFinder BBS/Beta/Chat/

Rusty Tucker: There is a Chat Room in that folder!

Michael Davidson: you can put chats inside specific areas, not just on the bbs desktop BW

Bob Wright: I saw that...still don't get it!! I don't see what is different with that and what I have now?

Michael Davidson: which is cooooool

Bob Wright: Oh, so I can put a chat inside of a folder called 5th graders, and then only those with access group of 5th graders can get that chat?

Rusty Tucker: Yes and no.

Michael Davidson: now you get it!

Bob Wright: ahhh......!

Rusty Tucker: All Chat rooms are really "chat server channels"

Ken Sutherland: is limit still 16 channels?

Rusty Tucker: We're talking on Channel 1, the Chat Room in the chat folder is also channel 1

Rusty Tucker: so if you open it, you'll be in this chat.

Rusty Tucker: There are 32k channels!

Bob Wright: right, I follow that

Michael Davidson: in the Beta chat folder you meant

Bob Wright: what makes that different than the "chat room"

Rusty Tucker: It works the same.

Bob Wright: its just not on the desktop, right?

Bob Nunn: The IM's are on a different channel then?

Rusty Tucker: But you can put it where -ever you want.

Rusty Tucker: IM's are not on a "channel" they go direct.

Bob Wright: Now I am following you!!!!

Rusty Tucker: Now get this.

Michael Davidson: But he could make a chat room that only 5th graders had access to because it was only channel in the 5th grade area, correct RT

Rusty Tucker: Anyone can make a channel, as long as they have uploading privileges.

Rusty Tucker: This means anyone with a mailbox can make a channel in their mailbox.

Rusty Tucker: So that may not be too good.

Bob Wright: so you can IM someone, ask them to join you on a channel that you created?

Michael Davidson: Since when, and how RT? :) How do you make a chat channel in your mailbox?

Rusty Tucker: So use of Channel is a privilege in the Access Group.

Rusty Tucker: By access Group you set a range of channels that the users can 'tune in to'

Bob Wright: well, I will read this discussion later. I have tennis practice. take care all. Thanks for the info, RT.

Bob Wright: <<left the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: MD - make a chat file, then upload it into your mailbox.

Michael Davidson: I don't know how to make a chat file :)

Rusty Tucker: Did you read the "Setting up Chat" info?

Michael Davidson: Obviously not!

Ken Sutherland: catch u later, time for supper

Rusty Tucker: :)

Ken Sutherland: RT, keep those fingers burning

Rusty Tucker: Hang on.. Dan O put together some good docs..

Jim Smith: This is a MAC we don't read docs ;-)

Rusty Tucker: Background: There are 3 items in the Chat folder.



The first is a sample Chat Room file called "Chat Room."



The second is an application called CHATEJT3 which changes the

Type and Creator to that required of a chat room file

(Type="CHAT" and Creator="EJT3").



The last is a document that describes the format for the data within the chat room file

called "setting up chat."



To create chat room files, you:



1. Create a text file with any text editor such as SimpleText or BBEdit.



2. The first item in the file is the record type. This is ALWAYS "chat" (without the quotes.)



3. Enter a TAB character right after the word "CHAT".



4. Enter a number that represents the "chat channel". This can be any integer in the range of 1-32000 (or is it 1-32767????). This number should also be within the ranges allowed by your configuration in the new User Manager program.



5. Enter a TAB character right after the chat channel number.



6. Enter the number of the icon id you wa„ÝÀÐ

Rusty Tucker: <<left the chat>>

Ken Sutherland: <<left the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: <<joined the chat>>

Rusty Tucker: 6. Enter the number of the icon id you want displayed in TF/User for this chat room. This too, is an integer, but I am not certain of the valid range. In any case, it should match up to a resource ID in your TF/User program or your custom settings file. I suppose that matching up with TF/User is better since TF/User for Windows does not yet know how to deal with settings files.



7. Enter a TAB character after the icon ID number.



8. Close and save the file under the the name of the room you want displayed from TF/User.



9. Drop the file onto the application to change its TYPE and CREATOR info to that required by TF.



10. Copy the chat room file to any locations desired in the BBS layout.



11. Repeat the above steps for other chat room files. You can organize these any way you wish, just be sure to align the chat channels with the ranges in your access groups, and the icon ID with one in TF/User or your settings file.



12. If you have not yet done so, set up the allowable chat channel ranges in User Maeݽ°

Rusty Tucker: 12. If you have not yet done so, set up the allowable chat channel ranges in User Manager for each of your access groups.

Rusty Tucker: At Spider Island, everyone has access to channels 1-1000

Rusty Tucker: You can also open a chat room by Apple Script, no Icon needed at all.

Rusty Tucker: There's a chat script in the "Little Scripts" folder that does that.

Rusty Tucker: So 3 users could join a common chat room just by running a script.

Rusty Tucker: I'm sure a 'scanner' is not to far off :)

Bob Nunn: Are you going to talk a bit about the process new user?

Michael Davidson: Ok, I'm not sure I will use it, but it might come in handy. BTW, where is the "Setting Up Chat" info?

Michael Davidson: ;fds

Rusty Tucker: Sure BN

Rusty Tucker: I think Daniel was going to juice up that script a bit

Rusty Tucker: I put some "Inside Mac" AppleScript docs online today

Bob Nunn: I thought that is what it was. I may take a stab as well.

Rusty Tucker: Scripting documentation is not that easy to find..

Bob Nunn: I think you learn by instinct.

Rusty Tucker: The next step will be to make it possible for a script or program to "listen" to a channel too.

Rusty Tucker: Instant "externals" !

Bob Nunn: and most of us would have been killed by now if it was up to our instincts. :-)

Michael Davidson: What event could be hooked into in a chat

Rusty Tucker: Chat Channels can transmit binary data, so there are lots of possibilities.

Michael Davidson: Is an event triggered when Rusty Tucker joins the chat?

Bob Nunn: so you could send gifs for example?

Rusty Tucker: Yes, but it stays inside TeleFinder right now. In the future, a script or program will be able to get the event too.

Michael Davidson: Not sure I can deal with binary data, but I am half-decent with scripting

Rusty Tucker: Here's an example.

Rusty Tucker: You know Ken's IM help?

Bob Nunn: Yes

Michael Davidson: yes

Rusty Tucker: A user would be able to login, and by a TF User "Chat Extension", be able to create their own help channel while logged in.

Rusty Tucker: Or you could use a Script to Filter IM's

Rusty Tucker: The Script could see them first, and then auto-respond, or pass them back to TF for regular display.

Rusty Tucker: That could be some fun!

Michael Davidson: :)

Rusty Tucker: I could go to lunch and let a bot do my chat!

Bob Nunn: Eliza responses apparently live?

Michael Davidson: Might be nice if you could implement the chat event AppleEvent soon for outside TF.

Rusty Tucker: Yep!

Bob Nunn: Tell me "Bob" how does "TFS crashing again" make you feel?? ;-)

Rusty Tucker: BTW - do you know how to make a script stay up and running?

Michael Davidson: Does the event only record the name of the chatter, or can his text be passed on too?

Rusty Tucker: name, text, and channel if it a chat room

Rusty Tucker: name and text only if its an IM

Rusty Tucker: Channels also have the User Entered, and User Left events.

Rusty Tucker: + the Channel Open and Close

Michael Davidson: Wow, so I could type something in a "HELP" chat room and or IM and get certain help info in response or even have e.g. an email to sysop come up and be ready to send.

Rusty Tucker: anything, its wide open

Michael Davidson: on the script stay running Rusty, just keep the loop going, if I understand you correctly

Rusty Tucker: Yes, my "ProcessNewUser" script opens, does its thing and the closes.

Rusty Tucker: That takes time. I want to have it stay open, and ready for another event.

Rusty Tucker: I could make a Magic 8 ball chat room.

Bob Nunn: Use the little known neverend command. Need a Goto don't we?

Michael Davidson: Keep a outside (counting) loop going until the event triggers it to take action, but never leave the outside loop

Rusty Tucker: I need to find some AppleScript docs

Rusty Tucker: and see some samples.

Michael Davidson: Rusty, best source is MacScript archives

Rusty Tucker: Well time for me to go.

Bob Nunn: Madam Zelda comes to life.. Not seen anything good. Read most of what I could find.

Michael Davidson: and let me give you a site for searching all the Applescript mailserver archives

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February 27, 1998 -- ©Copyright 1998, Spider Island Software